Talk:Soldier shakes
Disease sources Do we need a list of common sources for diseases in each article? The mention of vrock spores is only listing one of many sources of soldier shakes. There is also disease pulse, disease bolt, and extract brain. Given that multiple disease sources can give differing results (based on race of caster or die roll) I am not sure that listing sources would provide meaningful insight on how you can get it. WhiZard (talk) 21:49, June 11, 2014 (UTC) *I don't think we need a list for each disease article. But, I don't think it hurts to mention a common source, especially when it isn't otherwise obvious how a PC might contract the disease. I could be mistaken, but my rationale for only mentioning vrock spores as a source for soldier shakes was that it was the only likely standard source for the ailment that a PC would encounter. Vrocks are standard creatures with the ability and they appear in the Bioware campaigns. I am not aware of any other standard creature likely to inflict soldier shakes on a PC (though I only did a brief search for others on the wiki). And, while extract brain may in some instances result in soldier shakes on the extractor, that isn't something a PC is especially likely to know about, since no standard PC classes or standard items confer the ability, that I know of. : Anyway, if I am wrong and there are other standard sources, then maybe listing just one of them isn't a good idea. My original purpose was simply to note that the permanent ability damage is easily remedied and to add the script name. I added the mention of vrock spores in case it might interest a reader to know where he might run across soldier shakes. - MrZork (talk) 05:02, June 12, 2014 (UTC) :* First, you have shifted the focus from the ability to a single standard creature (no vrock summon possesses this ability). Also my memory does not recall this creature in either the OC or SoU. Looking through the OC by search there were no findings for the creature blueprint nw_dmvrock, nor the standard encounter nw_demons. The custom encounters did not appear to have a name that would include the creature except for one unused encounter in chapter 2 with the same blueprint as the standard resource. What my memory does recall is the application of soldier's shakes right at the beginning of the SoU when picking up "green spores". It struck me as a weird disease, that I thought was a bug, because it initially didn't do anything. That was memorable. When you get to the HotU you already are a high level with immunity disease from items, so this disease could easily go unnoticed. In custom modules I have seen plenty of uses of disease cone and disease pulse, but still that one standard creature often seems elusive. It is not that dangerous given its CR (compare it to a succubus who can cast spells and summon a duplicate). :: But what also seems to strike me is that you could apply your same reasoning which eliminates disease pulse, disease cone and disease bolt to many of the other diseases to show that they are quite rare. Take red slaad eggs (only source is the standard creature red slaad, not the summon that most of the slaadi will summon), to cackle fever (which comes from a blue slaad and as a rare outcome of contagion), devil chills (which only comes from a pit fiend), filth fever (comes from the dire rat, including animal companion, also rare outcome of contagion), red ache (comes from cobras, and a rare outcome of contagion). For some of these the name is obvious, for others, not so much. But besides contagion and the unused disease abilities, all diseases that are used can be linked to a small group of closely related creatures, and to specify a relationship for one, seems to open the ground to writing it for others, when it doesn't take much for a module builder to implement the disease in another way without even realizing it (all he has to do is use the standard disease abilities which were neglected by the standard creatures). WhiZard (talk) 07:44, June 12, 2014 (UTC) ::*Taking this a bit at a time, since I am not sure I follow your overall point. :::First, you have shifted the focus from the ability to a single standard creature (no vrock summon possesses this ability). In an article overwhelmingly about X, I don't agree that a single note that "Y is one source of X" shifts the focus of the article from X to Y. Obviously, this is a matter of interpretation, but I don't see it that way. :::Also my memory does not recall this creature in either the OC or SoU. I didn't mean to imply there were vrocks in SoU. But, unless I am totally misremembering, there is a vrock in the Host Tower in the OC. Between that and the vrocks in Chapter 3 of HotU, it seems likely that most people who own the game will have encountered a creature with the vrock spores ability. :::What my memory does recall is the application of soldier's shakes right at the beginning of the SoU when picking up "green spores". I thought that crate caused a lesser disease, but I haven't checked it. A DC 25 disease at that level would be pretty gruesome, really! Of course, the PC is close to cheap healing from Gilford in Hilltop. But, if soldier shakes is the affliction there, then that is a pretty strong point; it may be the encounter where a PC is most likely to actually get the disease in the BW campaigns. :::It vrock is not that dangerous given its CR (compare it to a succubus who can cast spells and summon a duplicate). Sure. Of course, a vrock can also summon a succubus, but I certainly agree that a vrock is not all that tough for a CR 10 creature. But, vrock spores are part of the reason a vrock can be dangerous. A pulse attack with a DC 25 fort save stands a fair chance of affecting a PC or henchman at the level he encounters a vrock, even in HotU. :::But what also seems to strike me is that you could apply your same reasoning which eliminates disease pulse, disease cone and disease bolt to many of the other diseases to show that they are quite rare. ... I agree that most of them are fairly rare. I guess I am not sure which reasoning I was applying in this case that, when applied elsewhere, would result in a problem for the wiki. I was never making any argument for adding likely sources to all diseases. Nor for excluding likely sources from any of them. If someone editing an article knows some fact that may place the article's subject in better context or otherwise be of interest to likely readers, I don't see the problem with briefly mentioning that fact in the article's notes. There are certainly many wiki articles with notes of the form "this ability is available to the X form of the shifter's Y Shape feat" or "this creature is one of the summons from spell or ability Z". I was looking at the note connecting soldier shakes to vrock spores in that light. That doesn't mean that every article has to list all possible (or even all likely) connections to the article's subject. :::The intended audience for my note was more players than builders. Obviously, a builder can make any disease more or less common in his module (and change the diseases themselves, if he wants). But, the wiki tends to give the standard creatures, spells, items, effects, etc. (and sometimes custom versions of same from the Bioware campaigns) some extra attention. :::Anyway, that note was an something of afterthought for me. If it's inappropriate to the article, remove it. I wasn't implying that all disease articles had to list their vectors. - MrZork (talk) 17:34, June 12, 2014 (UTC) :::* But, vrock spores are part of the reason a vrock can be dangerous. A pulse attack with a DC 25 fort save stands a fair chance of affecting a PC or henchman at the level he encounters a vrock, even in HotU. And here I was thinking you were arguing for that specific ability to guide players to be exposed to the disease and take advantage of it. Soldier's shakes is one of the most beneficial diseases a player can contract. When a player has a disease, he is immune to another disease being applied. That means two failures of a DC 25 save causes the player to be immune to diseases for 24 hours and no ability decreases occur until the end of the 24 hours. Very easy to take advantage of. I was arguing the broad spectrum, trying to see what is up with your particular affinity for this disease, and see if you were just carefully trying to draw attention to this manipulation. That is when players are fighting a vrock and a red slaad, it would be a good idea to run up next to the vrock and get soldier's shakes so that the potent disease of red slaad eggs will not be inflicted upon the players. Soldier's shakes is probably the mildest disease of them all when you stop to consider its "benefits". WhiZard (talk) 22:14, June 12, 2014 (UTC) ::::* Hehe. You are thinking about it more tactically than I was. I know that a diseased PC is immune to further diseases, but I hadn't thought about deliberately contracting one disease as an innoculation against a worse one. :) - MrZork (talk) 01:28, June 13, 2014 (UTC) * I don't have a problem with listing sources of diseases, but then again, there is always What links here. --The Krit (talk) 20:28, June 28, 2014 (UTC)